Energy fields in human body / 08/08/05 Grenville Croll: Prevenient natural philos. Kazuo Kondo

0:00 Do you feel that make up human beings? That's Jimmy Honey's title. I have learned how to understand and use the energy within me and from the outside by studying certain energy systems. Probably the best one known is acupuncture. You've all heard of acupuncture? Acupuncture uses needles and moxma, which is burning incense, over certain areas of the lines that the energy, known as qi, energy flows through. And the idea is that what causes problems in the body is blockages along these lines. So they will then use the needles to force the Qi through, to open, unblock or to improve the passage of this. It's taught in a very solid way that is almost mechanical, with understanding exactly where the lines are on the body, where the Qi lines are, where the crossover points are, where you stick the needles in, where you stank them out, where you have to have a grounding point. mechanical system and lots of people that learnt it stay at that mechanical using point. Another healing system which is completely opposite is the spiritual healing. And that is where you are taught to become a receiver of this energy that comes from outside. You So you're then taught how to hold your hand in certain positions, and that's as far as you go. You then will continue to do this during the session that you are eating. Something that is in between the two is Raki. That's a Japanese system. That's where you have part of the body tuned, so that you will receive the natural energy much more so and it becomes boosted as you go through. The acupuncture, the mechanical one, Reiki is the one that gives you slightly more scope for natural feeling, but any of them can be a starting point to go on and learn and have

2:30 much more understanding and control of the energy fields that make up the human being. I've known some very successful acupuncturists who spend their whole lives affecting people and don't really have any themselves or know how to use it. Which makes me wonder what they're around. The Spirit has no knowledge at all about the energy. They become a vessel. They're taught that if they act in a set way, think in a set way, then this energy will flow through them. Sometimes they use prayers or other images to induce this energy flow. but it is a natural energy flow that they go through. But they have very little control about it other than when they set their mind in some positions. Reiki, once someone is tuned, they can then use it any time by holding their hands at a set position and again, it's some mind control. Any of the three groups, they all work. But they should be the starting point the needs of the body, the energy movements of the body, and what can be done. Those who work without the knowledge, or don't go beyond the knowledge, the system still works, and they do do good work. It's just that there is so much more that can be done from that. I work with a small healing group of international healers that all have different ideas and come from different systems. And we combine all the knowledge we have and try and improve on everything that we are sharing. And now we're doing this in lots of ways. We've come up with lots of ideas and a lot more control about the energy systems. And one of the things that surprised us the most was just how many there were, or how many parts of them. Some of the work that we have done has been done thanks to certain guinea pigs, which are usually our friends. It's not quite as dangerous as it sounds because what we do before we do any work is we take a very, very solid image of what the person's energy field is like. We then remember that,

5:00 experiment on them, and when we finish experimenting, we then look at the person and make adjustments until it fits the picture that we started. So it's not quite as dangerous as it sounds. And usually it's very beneficial for people. The thing that we've come to discover is that there isn't one or two major energy fields, such as the meridian lines for the cheek. It's just one. But there are lots and lots and lots of energy fields. And we have been working to try and understand and control them. The thing that we have come to understand is that there are three major distinct layers that go to make up the human being. Each person in the group tends to get involved in their own part of the physical healing, either because it's their natural tendency or in my case because you tend to end up with people that have the same problems. In my case it was people that had emotional problems that were affecting them politically. So this came across it because somebody comes to see you with a pain in the left leg. You then spend some time, you heal the pain, they go away. Three weeks later they come back with headaches. You cure it, they go away. A few weeks later they come back with a pain in the back, and you think, well, what is the cause of this? You know, there's got to be something. And often it is an emotional situation that has happened where the actual emotion has got energetically blocked or stored in the body somewhere. Lots of other systems try and work this out in various amounts of success and ways. A lot of them tend to use talking and getting the person to understand the situation, define the situation, place value on the situation, and what happens if the person at the end can write about their situation in great detail, but the actual problem is still there. I put myself in the client's position and thought what I wanted was, I don't want to talk about it, I want to get rid of the problem, just like it would as if I had a bad leg.

7:30 So that was the start of my thinking. And I eventually went on to develop a therapy which removes the emotional block with putting the person who's had the problem in charge. I was able to do this by defining the energy that makes up emotion which is different to the energy of anything else. This energy is stored in various places of the body and after a good number of years you can classify it and find it and define it. And that part of the energy, like lots of energy can be moved. And so what the therapy I've developed happens is I will then define where the blocked energy emotions are. I will then manage to scoop them, move them, present them to the person via their chest where they can feel emotions the most easiest. Then it's up to the individual whether they want to keep them or not. Then, if they don't want to keep them, they will give them over to me who then will come to receive them. I cannot take them. They have to give them. It has to be their total responsibility. And that's one of the main differences. The other one is, I don't have to know anything about it. They don't have to live it anymore. All they have to get rid They will lay there, hopefully in a relaxed state, and I will then present them with emotions. They will associate experiences with these. It's up to them if they want to keep them or not. Only they know if they need to or not. Sometimes, because of the things that have happened to us, has made us and given us the necessary motivation to do the things that are necessary. And if we were to lose some of the problems of what caused them, we could lose that motivation as well. So it has to be the individual's choice of what they want all the time. Once this is done, they have got rid of as much as they can,

10:00 We are then able to produce energy to fill the missing areas that is pure and unconditioned and they will then make it into whatever they need it to make it into. This is the therapy that I'd be bothered. Is it always puritive or propensitive most? For my emotional therapy, you mean? Yes, it can be. I once had somebody who had, who were having all kinds of strange illnesses in minor, but they kept reoccurring. And they thought they had this emotional problem because somebody they knew had died sometime before. we started to work and there was this emotional block and when it started to come out they suddenly realised that it had nothing to do with a dead person. They had managed to come to terms with that. What they hadn't come to terms with was leaving their pet dog at home when they went to university. And this had eaten away at them subconsciously and was causing these effects. Once they're able to accept that and let go of the emotional guilt that's associated, they then continue with their life. It seems to me very sad that it's as though our bodies perceive things unconsciously, which we cannot bring to the surface so often. That's right, and often they become made. Yeah, that's what, hidden forever you mean for them. Well, not forever, but for the right to prove them out. will come to me with a set idea of what they think they need and the whole different issue will come up and something else that happened somebody came to me and who was very successful was in her 50s had had a business had a family children everything was wonderful got on great parents and her sister but i'd always since a little girl had this thing that her mother loved her system more than her and throughout her life this had kind of eaten away at her even though

12:30 it hadn't bubbled over to her hating her system and we had a session we cleared it and it changed life but that was a conscious one wasn't she didn't that was it that was a conscious one she knew that yes a lot of them that come up are i once did somebody who had a big problem with a chair and it took quite a lot of bringing out but what happened was when they were very small they had had a special child chair which they sat in and that was their security and then one day the parents decided you're now grown up you can't use that anymore and took it outside and broke it up and they were then forced to sit on a big chair where their feet didn't touch the ground and they didn't have the security and this had made a difference to them And as soon as got them to see them, or they got them to see that, they could then cure that, and then they could let go of the chair and the incident and start building the confidence that was taken away from them. So this sounds to me, and I'm totally, I suppose, like the talking cure. No, no, it's totally different to the talking cure, because the talking cure talks. I don't have to know what the problem is I don't really care what the problem is because it's not my problem I care about presenting the problem to the person so the person can choose because the important thing in this therapy is that the person has full control and full choice at some stage you must have been told this story about the chair for example sometimes you get what I call talkers and they will tell you everything, including the shoes thing all at the time, what time of year it was, the whole thing. But it isn't necessary, but some people need that. Right. The chair was one incident that came up, but often some very dark heavy things were never mentioned still have the same effect on the period. It looks as though you're going to go on to the next stage of the talk, and you said, I could interrupt at this stage, and you talked about your group and these energy fields. Now, I used to have a lot of worry about the way people like you use this word energy, which in this circle we have a very specific meaning. I think you're

15:00 right to have worries, yes. Yeah, and I know you're using it. From our point of view, you're using it metaphorically, but that's just a rather narrow way of looking at it. You're using the word for something a bit different. Now, what I wanted to ask was, and you have this group who are doing things in different ways, and you say we have lots of energy fields. Now, do you have any idea of whether the different members of your group are using different Are they using the same energy in different ways, or are they dealing with different kinds of effects? Our problem is that none of us are particularly scientific, and so we don't have any real definitions of what we're doing. but we all feel the energy so we will use something and go oh that's that's a green ray and then everybody will feel it and go okay we brought up the green ray and then we'll all use it well it is the beginning of science actually if you do that with a proper ring well yes but the thing is most of them we kind of go oh we're doing that kind of thing but you're using the term energy for anything that does something. Absolutely, yes. Absolutely, yes. Well, fair enough. It's not too bad, is it? It's not too bad. Your proof are all using it to mean more or less the same thing then? Yes, yes. We're using various energies to make a difference from various energies. Alright, yeah. When you say energy field and different energies, are you talking about one field, or many fields, each one has separation from the other one? We have been working on this and it's one of the problems that we've come to see and that is that the human being seems to be made up from three, from our terminology, different energy fields which we very, very, very loosely call the physical, the mental and the psychic. That, to us, are very, very definite energy fields. They have very definite feelings, colours, associations, and need necessarily energy tools to make a difference to them.

17:30 You're going to win with colours around here, I can tell you. They interact, or are they...? This is the thing, that first of all, when we first were forced to accept that there of three distinct layers. We then thought, well, okay, that's fine. But there was constant conflict with these three layers. And we couldn't understand why. Because some of the conflict is almost detrimental to the individual. And we thought, well, as a species, how could it continue as it was? So then we looked around and started looking at mammals. And discovered We heard that mammals had the same three levels, yet in all mammals that we came across, they were balanced. Sorry? They were balanced. There was a definite... one was in control, or parts of certain areas was definitely in control. In human beings, there seems to be a conflict that isn't the same in every person, and it isn't the same in every person every month. And we were having, and still are having, lots of problems about the meaning of this. One of the ideas we were coming up with, I don't know how silly this is, was that maybe the, unlike the mammals, the human beings were made up of three different life forms. Anybody? Well, you could define it as that, I guess, if you wanted to. I'd say there's a definition of being huge. And why we came up with this pseudo-theory was because it's so different to all mammals. The closest thing that we can find in mammals, energy-wise, are sheep and cows. Because they have the least conflict, or the most conflict, but in a set way. Cows, for instance, I don't know if you know this, but they have certain areas of the field and a certain hierarchy in the herd, and they will interact with them differently, and it's quite complex, the whole thing. It's the same as humans, is it? Well, it's the same as humans. Very much the same as humans. And the sheep also, as well. Yes, that's right. So in progress, you will become sheep and cows.

20:00 Or maybe sheep and cows will become us. I'm not really sure about that. But the thing that's happened, we've been working on this, and we're coming up with kind of different ideas. And a lot of the early things that we used to use, which we used to, we'd say, well, okay, so we would use the Reiki energy force, and we would use it in this way to make this effect. And then sometimes we would then combine it with, say, the Chi force, and we would then put a spin on them to cause certain effects. You know, the left hand you spin, or the right hand you spin depending on whatever to cause a set effect. That would all be fine. But then somebody will say, oh, hang on, look, I found this. We'll call it the green ray, or the something, or the golden rod. It could be a golden rod, right? And it feels like this. And we all feel it, and try and understand it, and start using it on our guinea pigs. And after a while, it works or it doesn't work. It doesn't work straight away, but it works. all the work we've done before, with the mixture. And that's the continual process that's happening. Also with the various illnesses. And as soon as we understood that there was the three layers, and they were in conflict, we then started to work a bit more on understanding each of the layers on each of the conflicts, and one of the group managed to disentangle one of the layers from the other through experimentation to see what would happen. And then we all started working without any bits or more, and now we can separate each of the layers temporarily to work on one layer without the usual interference from the other layers and because we can then do that when we replace the layers you know the best contact points to lay the other layer back. I hope some of that was clear. These different tools you've got. I think maybe you've just answered this question. I was going to say, do they interact with one layer or with all the layers? I mean, can you describe something about the tools you've got, like you've built in Rodley or Green Ray or whatever?

22:30 Very hard because it's all to do with feeling. And some people are more sensitive to these energies than others. A lot of people I work on may say, oh I feel a kind of heat. Others will say, oh it's going right down my left side and it's coming out my little toe. And it really does depend on the individual and what they're aware of. The thing that we thought What we were doing at some point is, well how much is the fact that psychologically, if these people come to us, they're putting themselves under us, out of control. And we would then say, can you stand here, can you stand there, can you lay there, can you do this? Well they're going to do it. So if we finish and say, well you're going to feel better, they'll walk away feeling better, because that's all it is. And we thought, well... Is there a little bit of hypnosis there? Well that's right, but we weren't very happy with that. Which is why we thought, well, let's try and find out about it. So we then started working, doing a lot of distance healing on people. And then we did a lot of distance work on children that didn't know we were doing work on them. And then on animals who didn't care what we were doing because they felt better. And it was through that that we all came to agree from making many mistakes just how much control we had or didn't have over what we were doing and what the effect was and wasn't. Did you at any time study the silver method? Not by those names, but we have all come across all kinds of things. Just have to say one thing about it. You know the human brain is supposed to have four distinct groups of frequencies. the silver method that helps people return to what they call a childlike statement, which is the ultimate. Is it possible that these layers correspond to these three pieces? Just as an ending. That's right, yeah. And the alpha, beta, delta is the type that we do use that. And depending on who we're working on, sometimes a person is very, very nervous or is very, very excited. is particularly good for us to work with so we then very gently help them to find the most

25:00 relaxed one of the three for the person at the time have you heard of plead factors work he professionally did lie detection as a consultant all over the world he got the idea of The way it works to put an electrode on either side of the skin and pass a current through it, we measure the resistance. And it's been noted that as tension occurs, the resistance changes. And you can map emotional states with the printout of this. And water, being a conductor in this body situation, he simply put water in a plant electrodes to either side of the leaf and he thought he would see a gradual increase in the conductivity just and but he hooked it up and before you can pour the water in it was giving a completely human looking printout it was just jumping around as a normal human sitting there doing anything for the water in it it went up quantitatively but it was still working he got very interested in this and he one way you calibrate this is to say something threatening to the person you're testing just to see what their reaction range is so he had to thought well I'll do this with this plant he thought I think I'll take my lighter and burn the leaf and no sooner did he even think it in that plant freaked out it virtually passed out and the pass out wave is where it just slowly goes back and forth he was amazed at this he's not the check that attached them to machine that made noise from the plant so he did a lot of research that Columbia University took it over and then NASA took it over too because they when they got really into this thing it was it was incredible and And they did this one experiment where they had two plants in the room. And he hooked one up, and he took his whole staff into the room. And they chose one person to be the murderer. The murderer destroyed, ripped apart one of the plants in presence of the other plant.

27:30 And then they all went out of the room. And they let the plant that wasn't destroyed, you know, settle down. And then they brought back in people into the room, one at a time. And when the murderer came in the room, the plant frees out. I think I hope that another time somebody came in that worked there and the plant started reacting very strongly and they couldn't understand why until they suddenly realized that he had cut the grass. I've come across this machine at one of the spirit festival things. And they had attached this to a machine that made noise. And so the plant was here. whatever. And certain people came in and it made horrible noise and everything else. And they said to me, come on, come, give them a must go. So I went to it and it was almost like it was humming. And it was, as far as my interpretation is that I was empathetic with the energy flow of the plant. That was my interpretation. But then we walked away and then they said, well, can you affect it diversely? and I was standing up this far from the fly and I said, well, yeah, just like that. And the fly went, yeah! But that was without thinking. That was just me sending part of my energy. So we now know why people talk to plants. Me and Toby. Okay, but do you listen to them? Well, I try to, but I don't hear very much. But let me tell you one other thing you did, I think, that relates to what you're doing. and the kind of uh the way you're working with energy he got curious is why the human being does not have visibility why you know if if you hook up a human you can't you know the human is not able to identify the murderer as such for some reason our we don't have that that purity of communication so he took took cells that this is done in Columbia they took cells out kept them alive from a human kept them alive hooked electrodes up and the cells could do it perfectly but when they put those same cells right back in it it attached it to the central nervous system it couldn't do it that is interesting because we find that a lot of functions that go wrong with the body

30:00 or maybe all three of these energy fields are in conflict. We've reached the point where I have taught people my emotional realignment therapy and I'm now happy to say there's three countries where people are actually using it. But I've learned how to teach people how to do this And part of it is stealing from the Reiki system, which is you tune a person's energy to a set way so they can then receive energy from a set way. So that's what they do. I can tune these people so they can then take the energy, well, receive the energy from the person, they can't take it, and connect to the other person. They can't do it on their own. They can't do it to themselves, no matter how hard they've tried, and we've tried this before. They can't steal it off somebody or take it. They have to wait to be given it. This is how the system is made. And we thought, well, this is very good, and this is very helpful, and we want to do more. Yes. So then we thought, right, okay, we'll do. And a friend of mine in America, California, is starting a school where we're all going to combine our energies and our thoughts and put this in. But the problem is, trying to teach somebody and say, well, okay, so we use this gamma ray. Oh, you called it orange last time. Oh, the orange ray, that's perfect. And we've got to have some kind of system of identification. So we weren't quite sure how to go there, so they suggested that I bring that up here. And the other thing is they were saying that we can't really have any people to do this. The information must be up there somewhere. We don't know what these things are called, but there's probably books on it somewhere. There are. We don't know. Exactly. So what we're saying is, how do we find this out? How do we get this? We want to find some way to start defining. You need to get into Vedic literature. I mean, it's incredible how much they've defined about these fields and the different koshas, as they're called, these mental, psychological, physical, intellectual, physical, all of these different bodies or quotients have been defined.

32:30 They're very ancient. They're extremely ancient. This is 5,000 meters. There is something that gives me a little concern here. I think certainly the ancient stuff might be the safest in this respect, but... I'm trying to get this... I'm learning a science book, but I'll take that to a science book scholar to look at some more of this. We've got some models. Energies. If you like, when I find out, it looks like there's a mess in the sun. I've got something like that. Yes, that looks very familiar to me. Anybody recognize it? I mean, if you... Those are all the energy channels. Those are the energies. Oh, that's some, it's just some. So there are Sanskrit names for those things. The thing that we had was when we first started, in a very naive way, we started learning energy. And then we thought, well everything that isn't comes from energy and from the East. So everything in the West must be bad. bad. Well, which is not quite right. And that was our starting point. And we based that on because if you can't believe that there are energy lines in the body, even things like meridian lines, when you cut the body and distort these lines, then you can't see what you're doing or can't take that into account. And so that was our starting point As we continued our studies with the systems from the mysterious East, we discovered that they are as a closed-minded and solid way of thinking about things as people in the West, as we thought the people in the West were. And a lot of them have ideas of some aspects of the mind or the body that should be done in a set way. Well, as soon as you you're out of balance. And if you start when you're out of balance, and continue your system out of balance, then all your views are not made of you out of balance. It seems to me just now that if you start to use, sort of trying to use scientific method,

35:00 you might find it's a bit of a heavy spanner to put on the nut, and you'll break the nut just trying to turn it in. Well, where, where? I was here a couple of years ago living a talk, and I was very, very gently saying that we're trying to find out a little bit about this healing thing and we're not quite sure, sometimes we'll just see what happens and play and a couple of people just went, that's the way, go for it, that's how you're going to learn, play and I took that to them and they all went, oh yes and we've been playing ever since and that's a serendipity and we're on the way what we really need, because we are trying to develop a way to talk to people to describe what we're trying to do and how we're trying to do it. We just want some basic understanding of the things and some kind of understanding. Because we don't want to invent the wheel again. And we're open to anybody who could help us, or point us, or anything, any direction at all. The trouble with naming things is that you need a consistent way of recognising the lesbian human. And one wonders if those Vedic names, Sanskrit names, have any regularity exactly exactly how it was they arrived at a particular place and a particular event and so on and so on. I mean, I can imagine with aquifuncture you could do it. Well, they've done that, and what they do is they have a whole series of names, letters, which define each line, each part of the line, where it goes, the whole thing. and you can learn this from books and from models but what happens in reality are not everybody is the same shape or the same type and these lines don't actually follow the the textbook things and also that we discovered and well since discussed with other acupuncturists i i do a form of acupuncture but anyone who's going to see me for healing i do it without the needles and without the sometimes the the lines have got damaged not necessarily through surgery but just through real life and what they then do is to form little circuits around

37:30 now this is fine and you get to know that and we know that because we can follow the lines But if you're going from a set model and if you're taught just mechanically and use it just mechanically, you will get results. But when you come to something slightly outwardly like that, you won't be able to respond. And that's some of our problem with that kind of thing. The thing that we are aware of is so much of the stuff that we're doing is we have to constantly go back and test it with each other because a lot of the influence we could have on the people and what we're trying to do, the outcome could be because of what we're doing with the person. So a lot of what we do, we do with other people, guinea pigs rather than their own guinea pigs. For the trolls. That's right. That's the kind of thing that we're trying to do. So that's what we're trying to do. We're setting up this healing clinic and we're trying to define what we're doing And we think that the basis for anyone who starts should be one of the three systems I mentioned are something very similar. Because once you've got that, you've got the basic understanding and the right frame of mind to be able to move on and be open and accept other systems that we would then overlay on top. But we do need some kind of label for that or else what happens at the moment is the person who's set up the clinic, who's a number one student and has been doing it for a number of times and makes no living doing this now, she will have these things, I won't be able to define them so she will say, oh, okay, I'm up to the clapping hands now. Okay, I'm going to do the elbow twist now. Right, I'm going to use the Blu-ray now. And what she's doing is having an effect. Can I make a suggestion that I think seems to me to bear on this problem of identifying things that we only perceive, as it were, inwardly? It seems to me that if you try to use definitions, you're a bit stymied, because you're trying to use things in the outside world to point at things in the inside, and there's no real But there is a method which I've seen work. It comes out of these Buddhist mind states.

40:00 And this thing impressed me, no small amount. If you, instead of just trying to define one thing at a time, look for a pattern, describe the pattern, and then ask the person to go and try and recognize that pattern. And in fact, it's done in Buddhist psychology by having this almighty long sequence. It depends which system you're using, but one of them has 89 mind states. all right and this is what impressed the willies out of me i could follow it up to about 25 and i they were comprehensive they were good and it faded away but what it told me was i reckon that probably all right up to 89 i was most impressed by that i can tell you it means some people have been up there and they can actually leave this record you know now i don't know but but that pattern is compelling isn't it? The other thing that we're very worried about, we've all done Reikis for a number of years and we've all mastered and we can all teach other people the Reiki, and Reiki's system is very good, but we've all been using it for a number of years and we used it to its maximum, and then we suddenly discover there is somebody who was doing Tibetan Reiki, and you think, well, what's this? You go along, and they've just messed it up, they haven't improved it, they've messed it up. And then you'll go and there'll be the, I don't know, the sausage version of the Reiki. And this is what happens. And and instead of it being improved it will just get added to and sucked down and that's the thing that we thought my system my emotional i stole bits from every other system i could come across and left the rest because so much of it is just not necessary but the bits that work are brilliant Well, I suppose we're playing ancient things. We're bound to get layers of the irrelevant or the nonsensical put round things. Because people need somehow to get themselves into the... That's right. Some of the ritual stuff, the incense, the whale music, et cetera, is

42:30 help that. But they tend to think that it doesn't work without it, and that's where we have problems. I mean, if you're asking, if you're saying to me now, I've got the problem on my shoulder, and it's really painful, can you help me? I'm going to stand here and evoke the seven gods of whatever, the eight guys of this, the four people from the West, before I can work on you. Rubbish! You've got the pain, I'm going to work on you. I don't need that? And why do they insert that? This is the thing that I'm worried about. The most obvious version of this that I know is the Sybil in, I can't remember, the Greek place where they had temples, and she went through a rigmarole, but in fact she was being I'd just like to ask Tim if I got this right, what you're really saying, and if so, in a way it's terribly impressive. You're saying that a whole lot of these people, and, you're almost saying everyone except your group, but I don't really mean that. They're just as bad. You're in the same position as we are, vis-à-vis normal scientists. They've got closed minds. They say, you do it this way. Absolutely. And so here I find there are all these people out there that I thought might have had more open minds because they're they're not doing physics, and they're just as bad. Oh, that's a shame. That's a shame. Oh, it's sad. Maybe I'll have to come and see you. That's the first year I came here and gave it all. A few of them were very against the idea, and they were saying, you know, what on earth are you doing? And I said, well, hang on, it's an opportunity, it's a great, it's not out there. And they said, well, yeah, right, well, of course, then when I went back and told them what had happened, they all went, I wish I'd have gone. And then after last year, I mean, it was even, you know, I said, this is fantastic, you know. So this year they said, well, can you use this? And can you ask these wonderful vehicles to help us? Any feedback at all would be most helpful. But look, you see, this is a bit like what we do in this society, because this you don't say explicitly,

45:00 but what you are telling us is that you, as a group of people, that you function differently, that they are able to have a perception of those fields, of the light, or whatever. you have perception if anybody comes to you to see how is wrong and what is wrong and we talk like we, normal people. Scientists don't have perceptions of the doctrine or whatever. So in this sense, you understand, you are almost having a different faculty or different organ with which you see something which other people don't. So you begin to chat with new territories, and it's up to you how you divide it into categories between those of you who see the same, how it would happen. We don't see that. I mean, it would only be if you were active, if you actually then develop that. I mean, I actually think that everybody does have this type of creativity. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. Obviously, like anything, some people are more gifted in one area than another, but certainly... Well, that's what I was going to say, and I was also going to say you have a trained skill as well. Of course, you may have aptitudes, otherwise you want to start it. That was right. You can't teach anybody to be a concert pianist. No, exactly. Not really. But you have the skills. Now, the interesting thing you said about other mammals, other than ourselves, reminded me of... I don't know, I don't know, I don't hear stories like this now, but in the days when we had an empire, and there were lots of people out in Africa and India and places, you get very strange stories about people who communicated over large distances and knew what was going on, you know, from relatives or fellow members of a tribe, particularly in Africa, because I think they could do it in other places. You don't hear this now, and I'm just wondering if what was going on

47:30 to somehow be worn out or suppressed or something. Maybe it's just undeveloped, maybe it's still there. But the fact that we've all got mobile phones, who is it? It does make sense. That's right. And if we were back in, if we suddenly lost that kind of communication, maybe we could rediscover it. Going back to what Alev was saying, I think that I have, my group and I have more in common with the people in this room than with most other healers. They're the ones that have the set ideas and the problems, and that are stopping any development. That's what I was finding with the people in this room earlier today, wasn't it? We could say the other way round. We have more in common with you than we have with outside. Yeah, you're getting closer, I think. Jim, I have a suggestion on your not reading that in the real common vocabulary thing. Now I've discovered that there are a number of people in the room who belong to the scientific network. It's about 1,500 people at the moment, most of them in this country, perhaps, are involved in a Swiss group. So I'm aware of the types of people who are involved, and a lot of them are extremely open-minded. About half the membership are egos or actual practitioners or human resource consultants and stuff like that. In the last year or so this group has put up an interesting website and there are places where you can ask the sort of questions that you've asked. My guess is within 1500 there would be about 100 people who between them would know if such a vocabulary existed already. Brilliant, thank you. I think, in addition to the basic thing, the mind is a bit more indirect, but I can go and show you that to you for a long time. Thank you. That's good. So, someone? I think that it's just, I mean, this is one of the other kind of psychotherapists, and I think, you know, within craniosacral therapy there is a, you know, different alignment as well. I mean, in terms of the three areas you distinguish, and that might obviously relate to kind of like sort of anthroposophical approach to, I don't know, this is going into kind of those distinctions. But the thing that I think, the way that I'm starting to work more myself, well, I think

50:00 actually, yeah, I've been looking at it for a long time, is that I actually talk with the body. That's the thing, absolutely. Absolutely. So that makes it a very direct contact, but I mean, yeah, that's a very interesting thing. That's the thing, we have a problem with some of the systems, because they teach you how to work on the body. and that's wrong. You should work with the body. And the first thing that we do or teach anybody to do is to introduce yourself to the other person's energy field. And then you know if you can go further, or you should go further. And that's the starting point. And the fact that a lot of these people that were trained in Mysterious East will attack the body with their energy is, in my book, no better or worse than being attacked with a scalpel by something and this kind of thing. Because the effects can be as disastrous. Any other questions? Thank you. Thank you very much. I guess that's all it for today. It's the end of Jim Honey's talk. Grenville Kroll on the Prevenient Natural Philosophy of Kazuo Kondo. three paces onto my journey, I discovered a pile of monographs on provenient natural philosophy, which I unbundled and proceeded to read through, and was fascinated for the very first moments, and from there, ever since. Kondo, he died, sadly, in 2001, and I was

52:30 able to study his work whilst he was still alive. Mrs Kondo is still around. I don't know whether or not he hasn't has any errors. He was the full professor of mathematics at Tokyo University for about 35 years and he, quotes, retired in 1973 and essentially place, as far as I can term it, for the following nearly 40 years. His monographs, which you put out every month, were ostensibly from the CPNP, the Centre of Provenient Natural Philosophy, which I suspect was a very large room in or near his home. He was based just south of Tokyo in a place called Yoksakaido. A curious coincidence, one of the students, this guy called Shonichi Amari, who's now the professor of mathematics at Tokyo University, I actually met his Shonichi Amari at a conference on neural networks in Imperial in 1995, and Amari in fact actually signed my certificate of attendance, so I'm just one handshake away from Hong Kong there. He was very much occidentally based. He travelled very rarely, although many dozens of people, academics mainly, travelled to meet him in his native Japan. He was a cheap guest at the Einstein Centennial a centennial event in Nagpur in India in 1980. He refereed many of the papers that gave one of the inaugural addresses and gave a summary of his work as it stood at the time then. He is one of the most productive people. It is unimaginable how he has produced the volume of material that he has. I'm just absolutely amazed. Most importantly, rather than being

55:00 a civil worker who perhaps was not subject to the scrutiny of his peers, there's evidence of deep collaboration with other eminent Indian, Japanese, European and American academics. But as he became older, of course, his contemporaries withered out, and at the time of his death he seemed almost alone in his work. You can't get anywhere near Kondo through Google. I tried again last night and there are just one or two more hits. The Japanese seem to have started loading his work on aeronautics up onto the web, so there are now a few more... Did you say aeronautics? Yes, he was an aeronautical engineer. Sorry, you're interested in what context and what sort of aeronautics? I think one of his papers was on laminar flow, and another one was on the turbulence of photograph propellers. I'm a glider pilot, so I share the common interest in that. That's the only photograph, one or two photograph photographs I have. Um, this guy is, um, his name has come to me. He's a still living Indian mathematician who's put out a couple of papers on, um, spherical space-time structures. There's a condo there, Mrs. Condo, at 1980. So his early work was on, after he moved away from his, I think there was something, the war happened, and I think his work on aeronautics he was transferred somewhere else, more or less whether he liked it or not, and got involved the theory of yielding. There was an interesting paper that he did in 1973, which showed that the interference that we see on analogue television pictures, the mathematics of that interference is the same mathematics as the mathematics of yielding, which is quite a curious result. So, I should explain, I'm a computer scientist, so I'm trying to learn higher mathematics

57:30 by osmosis, so some of the stuff that I describe of his work is really repeating without true understanding of what he's doing, but I think I can understand that the propagation of crystals is relativistic would be an interesting result. I think many of you will probably know the work of Bill B. Bullock and Smith. So he was starting to use the geometry of higher order spaces back in the mid-19... in the early to mid-1950s. Towards the end of his formal career he set up the research association of applied geometry and they put out a rather scrappy series of research notes that were produced on old typewriters using Banner machines, but they are down at the British Library, and evidence of, you can see the names of initial collaborators, many of whom continued collaboration through the following 50 years. 200 research notes, which formed the sort of foundation of the work that was to follow. 280 copies, probably quite a lot, I mean there's 60 copies of these evidence that there's a fairly large community of people doing this work. The emphasis is on the use of geometry, of course, as the underlying methodology. And the RAG finished when Condé retired. The RAG memoirs are available through the world's second-hand book shops on the internet, I managed to pick up the entire series of four volumes. It's a mere two and a half thousand pages. About half of this is actually Condo, and Condo of course edited all the other contributions. So again, it's just evidence of, it's quite a large piece of work and this looking at the RAG work is I mean it is very very interesting

1:00:00 pay the mortgage by doing selling optimisation software it's interesting to see early work on linear programming this is just a few years after Danzig came up with a simplex method but it's interesting to see advanced, that work was within the RAG memoirs. There's a subject called Diacoptics, which is promoted by Gabrielle Crom, which Conle picked up. There's a very... Shinichi Yamari did a very, very interesting, lengthy theory theory of information earlier, early on. It was also Amari who collected towering with homology theory. Was it? Yeah, thank you. Amari has come both doctoral students and fairly productive in this series of work. So it's quite a diverse set of work. I think what's important about Kondo is his collaborators, Gabriel Kronk, who everyone will know, but very importantly, the sons of a guy called Akitsubu Kawaguchi, Kawaguchi is a mathematician who I'll do his bio at the moment, had seven children, four sons, and all four sons became professors of mathematics. Importantly, Kondo collaborated with, particularly, Mikiyaki Kawaguchi, who did a summary paper of his father's work. Also, I had one email from Tomaaki Kawaguchi, who's near a university in Japan, who's now retired, But I think these collaborations indicate that Kondo's work was held in very high regard in Japan. And I've got a sneaking suspicion that Kondo is one of Japan's biggest secrets. Because this guy will not correspond with me. I know where he is. And we do have a clear recollection of meeting. Just one email here. I think Peter Marse has come across Amari recently. Peter Marse. Has he? OK. Yes, Amari is doing theory of the brain at the Reichen Institute.

1:02:30 Otto Fischer, who Clive has corresponded with, started to do unification work involving quaternions, trying to unify the relativity and quantum mechanics. It was very productive. He was an engineer, Swedish. It was from, by virtue of Otto's work, that Kondo was inspired to go and try and do further unification work. And I think, subject to other people, it was really understanding that Kondo may have actually achieved that. so again important joint papers with Mikiyaki and Tomahaki Kamaguchi in the two occasions I've been here I've noticed that the same mathematics seems to pop up in different in different circumstances and this is seen repeatedly in Kondo's work in the same way that mathematics as the interference of television pictures, surely this wave integration pops up in interesting places also. This is a dominant theme of this long series of work, that the mathematics seems to be similar, which as a non-mathematician I find interesting. This is the first paper where Kondo starts to use Kawaguchi spaces. Kawaguchi spaces are the generalization of Finsler and Raymanian manifolds. I think, if my memory serves me correctly, a Finsler space is a Kawaguchi space of order zero. Raymanian space is a Kawaguchi space of order one. And Kawaguchi develops this theory of higher order spaces that goes up to as many orders as you like. Yes, so again, it's the first unification paper based on how you'd use mathematics. And this doesn't, from that moment on in 62, for almost 40 years, continues doing this unification work and cites Clyde and Ted in the fall. Fisher also cites Clyde and Ted in his early work. So this is the 62 paper,

1:05:00 collaborative paper with Michiaki Kawaguchi. Two summary papers which are to me impenetrable over the first few I'll just speak now of Kawaguchi. He was a mathematician of the highest repute in Japan. His work was, he worked at the highest levels in Japanese society and government. He was over a period of 30 or so years, the first part of the last century. Your second point surprises me. You're referring to the Tense Society of Great Britain? I think that we're certainly involved in the Tense Society of Great Britain, but I think it's called the Tense Society in Japan. Yeah. Yeah. Um, Austin Stigelt, who was founded in the Tensile Society of G.B., um, was the, was the editor of the, uh, Raag Memoirs. Um, okay, ah, my memory served me correctly, uh, so, uh, uh, Tom Arkins is current president of the, uh, Japanese Tensile Society. Uh, his work is incredibly austere, and by comparison, Condor's work is more florid, speculative, and Kondo's work is, uh, Kawaguchi's work is very austere and published in the, um, um, the theory of the academy in Japan, which is the highest level of Japanese publication. Um, this is just a, I hope you understand it more than I do, um, this is a summary of what a Kawaguchi space is. But I don't know if that makes any sense to anybody. Oh yes, the problem with the Kawahoochee space was christened as such by Singe, which I think says something about who he was. This is the notation that you see frequently throughout Pondo's work.

1:07:30 A carigucho tree. The order increases here. The tree seems to be three pronged for some reason. An example of, just to use this diagram as an example, one condo's paper is on the of animals, and the venal and arterial systems of mammalia seem to have something to do with the intertwining of a Kawaguchi tree. So this is where the Kawaguchi space has started to come in frequent classification of elementary particles in terms of Kabaguchi's basis of differing orders. So the notation carries very succinctly the characteristics of the uh, various types of births sort of to make particle, uh, so this is a, one of those, um, the condo has this, uh, series of, um, quanta, starting with this one, theta, but 30-mile MUD. Can you just say what the blocks in the table are? Yeah, the, um, elementary particles are simply agglomerations of numbers, just integer. So, in the same way that Dr. Don was showing yesterday about the tetrahedron being an information-carrying unit, what we see is integers such as these, arranged in simple structures which represent the structure of fundamental particles. So fundamental particles are simply number organized in certain forms. So again, a proton-neutron, just a bunch of numbers organized in a high roller space. So a proton

1:10:00 consists of a 27th meter, which is three rows thus. Well you see, here you say the three rows are in the correspondence of the three books, Did you? But you didn't say that when I asked you what's the table bed. Is this not a criticism? No, no, no. The problem is having, I think my role is really someone who's scan read 12,000 pages, like a walking index. Some of it I do understand, most of it I don't. So what I'm doing is trying to summarise the... Just press on with all this understanding, you're not understanding, but it's fruitful. This is where it gets very interesting for me, because he was now retired. As often happens, he could publish and do all he likes. This is where his best work takes place. I mean, it's true that his very best work was done in his nice decade. So the title of the research series is Research Notes in Nemeranda of Applied Geometry for Provenians and Natural Philosophy. For some reason that was what caused me to open the box and go and look inside it. every month for almost 30 years, he put out a monthly monograph, and it's just an absolutely monumental piece of work. The diversity of the subject area is just incredible. The English is quite amusing to read in some cases, because it's not his mother tongue, and you do have to make allowance for his English. It's quite readable, but it doesn't quite flow as perhaps you can expect reading literature from this part of the world. As far as I'm aware, the British Library, the Smithsonian in the US, handles Black Library in Germany, and perhaps one or at most two other places. It was circulated privately, so I'd just caution if you do get involved with the work, but preserving access to it is important because the British Library

1:12:30 is the only place I've got access to it. If anyone does know of the location of where I can get access to an entire series of this work, I'd be very grateful to learn about it. But there were large quantities of work stored at the Playfair Library at the Bureau of College. Really? No, not at, er, not at the FEMA. Yeah, Thomas Karazi, that was the name I was trying to remember earlier. Living Indian Mathematician, Spherically Symmetric Spacetimes, which I think you might find of interest. And the Jainists, some interesting work coming out of that. The Kondo's birthday was January the 1st, and people used to travel to Japan every New Year to go and meet over a few days, which happens here. and Conde would give a presentation, Bullard would give a presentation and the stuff would be written up in the post-Rag reports and there's quite interesting information about Conde and others that comes out of that. So, small community, about the same size as this one. And I think importantly, his library was obviously scrutinised after his death so his two large papers were published post-humansly. One of them was written by Condot. One was a summary in Japanese of his life's work and unfortunately there was no English translation but he was obviously on his death that he really wrote it but he still managed to get 120 pages out summarising his work. so as I've already said his best work is in the last 15 years he tends to work on many things at the same time different themes and he picks stuff up and puts it down but still publish so it seems like there's an awful lot of things going on at the same time I think the titles of these series are absolutely epistemological foundations of quasi-microscopic phenomena from the standpoint of Finns and Kawaguchi's higher order geometry, January, June, 1991. A wonderful title. But, of course, we see all the

1:15:00 key subjects being tackled rigorously and in due detail. And you start to get a sense that, hang on, this guy is very close to achieving something absolutely extraordinary. I sort of read papers on electromagnetism so frequently now it's like it chops up, apparently, am I correct in saying that the Maxwell's equations pop out of the Lorentz orthogonality? Is that true? So far, as you said, I'm not sure what the orthogonality, where is the end of the series? Towards the end of the series, you would say that. You sort of see lots of other work, and you sort of mention almost in passing that... and electromagnetism... Do you know what whole order physics means? Yeah, I believe you're accustomed to using second order differential equations. Condor is very insistent of use of higher orders of differentiation, so effects are being missed in his view. Well, I couldn't agree more because Lou and I are working on something which persists in getting fourth order equations whether you like it or not. Excellent, excellent. I mean, you crank the sausage machine and out comes the fourth order equation. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Well... What is yielding? What is yielding? It's the... It's the... Oh, it's the real... I see. Okay, no, I mean, if it just means... And also, he was very big on fracture mechanics, so when something breaks, that breaking is very informative I thought there might be some higher concept under this. So, the diagrams that Ted was querying earlier come from this series, Higher-Origin Metrical Theory, Elemental Particle Structure. So, Kondo recognizes the veracity of quantum mechanics in terms of its ability to describe

1:17:30 and the fact that it's been experimentally substantiated. So everything he does is done in terms of, and is generally consistent with science as we understand it. But the way he explains it, it shows that what we understand is just part of the wider and richer whole. What a low line that time. I thought it was low flying lines. Well, that's the title, and I'm certain that I didn't mistype it. because in Kondo's view we are in a human sense just a large quanta so we start to see a Kawaguchi tree used to describe living things he has an extraordinary command of the biological world so floral metamotis the structure of basal plants There's one wonderful paper that shows that metabolic rate is proportional to weight to the power of three quarters, and lifetime is proportional to the weight to the fourth root. and that's derived from apyri and confirmed to experiment. Just an unbelievable command of the biological world. I suspect I'm one of the very few people on the planet to know why a snake hasn't got any legs. There's a geometric reason for that. Why an egg is an egg. uh because it's a mathematical space of order zero so um radial symmetry in um in starfish and so on theory of nation in terms of brain a general sort of flavor for

1:20:00 I've chosen to label the papers, the monographs, as K-whatever, so it goes from K-1 through to K-3-5-8. Some of them are very much favourites, and I was interested to have actually brought a few of them with me. So, atoms hyphen the multi-parametric space. So, it has some beautiful expressions. One of my favourites is all spaces, all particles are spaces, all spaces are particles. So when we have a part of an atom, an electron, it's a type of space, and you bring two of them together, you've not only got two spaces of the same type, but you've got a third space, which is mathematically based on the combination of the properties of the two of them. So it's So, it delves into chemistry as well. What's that table called where we have the elements laid out? The periodic table. Yeah, the periodic table's in there numerously as he reflects the chemical structure in terms of the geometry of higher order spaces. Because the fetal aspects of atoms are more molecules. Ah, yes. Let's start to mention this thing called the KHK theorem. I've got a call. I've got a slide specifically devoted to that, but I'll cover it now. Now, Kondo takes the view that more and more complex phenomena are simply mathematical spaces of higher and higher order, but there is a result in mathematics with regard to higher order spaces, which is that all but three of the dimensions cancel out due to cross-differentiation, and that is the reason why we observe a three-dimensional space, which I think Clive indicated was probably possibly an interesting result I'm so sorry, would you be kind enough to say the last sentence as phenomena become more complex they are spaces of higher and higher order but there is a result in mathematics due to Kawaguchi Kondo

1:22:30 which is that all the three of the dimensions of freedom cancel out due to cross-differentiation. And that's Kondo's view, because he repeats it a hundred times if he repeats it once. And that is the reason why we observe a three-dimensional space. So the observed three-dimensionality is a mathematical result. It's not something we necessarily have to assume. It follows naturally from the austere mathematics of geometry of higher order spaces. But I may have a slide devoted to that shortly. 291 is one of my favourite papers. It starts with nothing, as Clive and Ted do. So we have basically a theory of indistinguishables, a series of fundamental information elements, the integers which do not have individual individuality can only be counted and so we start with the world is built up of particles which are comprised of spaces of differing orders so a point a line a tetrahedron There is at approximately the level of the proton or electron, this is where the indistinguishables are, perhaps just under that level in the first reaches of the quantum world. world. The subatomic realm, as far as I can see, seems to be as a result of going into negative dimensions. So the macroscopic world which we can observe is comprised of information spaces which have positive dimensionality. The subatomic world where we have weird particles of all different types of flavours, they pertain to regions which have negative dimension.

1:25:00 Keith did a lot of work with cohomology, which is probably my hand got into combat. The interface between these regions, I think, seems to be important. I'll skip on that one tomorrow since you wrote it. Theoretical physics is presently expressed in terms of second differential equations. deeper microscopic penetration requires higher-order differential equations. Differential geometry is the tool of choice, although it does say that it's like any other tool, its suitability goes so far. So that's a definition of the Kawaguchi space. Yeah, so this is familiar territory. Kondo has a series of quanta. This one we all know. He describes a lot of higher energy phenomena in terms of a larger quantum. And his view is that there are a series of quanta of ever-larger scales. he's got several definitions of derivations of the fine structure constants I'll just do a summary of 291 which I'll speak over here's some of his latest stuff Condé's worldview includes the word design so he sketches out what it seems the obvious properties of the human body in terms of its geometric structure. Bones are just quanta of a particular form, osteomyological quantization. So here we have a geometric structure of the human body, this is the ear. so he goes through maps the geometry power of spaces

1:27:30 onto the human body and vice versa apparently the liver has a couple of lobes so there's an explanation for why there are two lobes in the liver there are two lobes in the liver but I do now apparently there's a genetic reason for it so the skeletal Hesterinset, the potassium or circulation system that can combine into a hologramatric cold can be more generally quantified. Each quantum involves some osteological, neural or circulatory functions, etc. Slowly the human body from head through trunk to limbs are quantized into a finite number of quantities. Clearly this is a very different... I don't I don't want any reactions, but it's how it looks. I just think it's really interesting. I've just got one before where it opens up the ears. This is really important, actually. The bones of the ear are the earliest bones to be ossified. Right. Embryologically. Yeah. Right. And, you know, they are fascinating bones, you know, there's the cotria, which is the shell, and then there's the piece in there. Well, we can hear before we can see. That's right. Yes, we can hear our mother's body, and other things outside. What strikes me, not just this slide, but previous ones as well, he seems to have some generalized meaning for the word quantum, which goes outside, you know, the use of it in ordinary quantum mechanics and so on, it would be helpful if we understood his attitude to that. His attitude might be topological, you know, looking at spaces and they have certain special numbers or special qualities associated with it. Yeah, that's right. I'm saying, again, it was deep, deep resonance with Don's work yesterday. I could see these folded up mathematical spaces. I sort of had this conception that it was something to do with the higher order geometry, very tightly folded spaces, the natural properties of which is that it's tetrahedral. The tetrahedral theme comes through very strongly. There seems to be a natural connection with what I'm doing, in that the quantum entity is emergent from the space.

1:30:00 And this may be a generalization of that. Yeah, emergent, yeah. It's a natural property. In fact, just moving on. That ties up to the diagram earlier. I mean, to be educated in the bone structure of the face by a Japanese mathematician I find to be an extraordinary... Everything you want to know about spiders is... So he has a notation scheme for classifying the structure of various types of arachnoids and anthropolar. And his view is that every type of living thing is an instantiation of a particular type of higher-order space. So there exist as many fundamental elementary particles as there are instantiations of particular types of high-order space. And obviously as you go, it's up to more complex and more high-order space as, of course, the diversity of forms increases dramatically. This is its only publication in the Western world. It's called Three Phases of Systemological Penetration of Nature. which was submitted to the Italian institution, which is the Accademia Pontiana di Napoli. And it's the same series that Immanuel Kant published in. They do one publication per year. And it's a Jesuit academy in Italy that's just been around for a very long time. That's his only publication in the Western world. It's still available for about 50 euros. But it is a very, very... because it's summarising so much into just a hundred and odd pages, it is very terse and it's a very good system as well. So, two types of difference in the form between a male and a female spider is described in terms of some slight mathematical difference in its space.

1:32:30 Again, this is another series. Again, a favourite paper. It starts, if Kondo believes an important result, he assumes that consciousness starts with the extraction of Galois fields. So it's They're very fundamental. There are numerous papers on music and musicology. We all know that there's something mathematical about music, so we've seen much work on that already, no doubt. The condo works that subject very hard. One of the important results he shows that they...