Evening discussions FW Lawvere

0:00 ... themselves could ever have the skills, even purely historically, instead of participating in the present. The other thing is that this colloquium talk, which I did here, is really the product of his teaching the algebraic geometry course. And so the details, I mean, this was just a sketch, really, of the fact that we need to... Yes, and it should go to a completely different notion of scheme based on the... He described this. Yeah, so he said that there. But he must have developed it in detail, again, in ways that, well, I mean, the likelihood is that we either knew or have discovered like maybe 80% of what he, but the remaining 20% would be, could be quite shocking to those people or even to us, you know. Anyway, I'm just, I'm just underlining this speculative fact. And hardly anybody seems to know about his redefinition of the notion of scheme. Yeah, I mean, somehow they don't. People just don't listen to him. I mean all of this non-communist topology stuff that Western people do is entirely based on the old, the previous, and really is completely undercut by this thing.

2:30 No, I completely see that this would not only be of great historical importance, but could also be quite transformative significance to mathematics itself, so it's obviously a project of huge importance, it has been taken very seriously. And of course the algebraic groups is one field where they use the nilpotent theories the most, systematically, for differential problems themselves. So this could demonstrate to her, you see, that it wasn't John Bell, or even me. Well, I hate to say it, but letting the scales fall from Karen's eyes is almost the least of my concerns right now, after what you just told me, I mean, no disrespect to her. I think this is really the most important thing you've told me today, and I've told me lots of very important things today. The other thing, I'll tell you one final thing, and I think this is all I know about this very sketchy... I have tried myself to listen a little bit to these tapes, and apart from the fact that the accent is German, there is this observation... You know, because he's going on. He says, well, let's take a space X over Y, and then let's look at a section over the empty set. Let's look at a section at a single point. You know, he started pedagogically going through very simple moves on everything that's introduced. And so it's incredibly boring. Even if one didn't already know this stuff, it would be boring. So the total on the... What the transcriber would have to be paid is not just for... I'm sure any I'm sure practically any transcription job is like that. Yes, that's no different from any other job. Your texts are probably boring too. They're much more boring than anything the Groping's gonna have to say, believe me. Not really in terms of the content. The content per minute is much less than you imagine when you listen to a talk. Yes, of course. It always is when you listen to a talk. When you listen to it on a tape it's going to be, so it's going to appear boring. And it's also, of course, which is added to by the fact that unless you actually... See somebody writing on the board or chalk and talk. Just having to reconstruct it from the words is always much more difficult. No, that's even the disastrous part, of course. We don't have that. No, no, but you don't have them any... I mean, that's... I mean, it's enough that such an incredible treasure trove of recordings have grown to exist. To have them complete with the working notes of what you wrote would just be too good for me.

5:00 But even so, what you have is of incredible value, clearly. So we've got to do something about this, and I will... And so another conjectural point, because of the total lack of equations and diagrams, it may not even be the most practical thing. Transcribing to transcribe word for word the actual words rather to for somebody who knows the subject in a general way to just listen to the whole thing and write a detailed synopsis, but that would of course require a very competent mathematician, a very confident trustworthy mathematician. I think the raw transcript probably is indispensable, however boring the project would be. I would be quite willing to take it on and give four or five years of my life to it if somebody could find the means of, you know, keeping me, you know, body and soul together. But, okay, look, I mean, obviously, I prefer to stay in touch on this. Well, stay in touch anyway. Yes, you've given me enough to keep me awake all night. Not with excitement. But, okay, I just want you to make me one promise, which is... Whatever you do, hold on to those sound tapes in your garage and don't let any harm come to you. I'm quite serious. The first thing that we must do, I think, is to make... Well, that's right, that's why we need to keep them safe. Exactly. Because they, in fact, would be worth stealing, well worth stealing. Especially to somebody who's aware of... Unscrupulous. Unscrupulous, exactly. So keep them safe. The first thing we must do, as a practical matter, is just to make straightforward... Copies of the audio tapes themselves, i.e. the audio tape, which can be done at speed, it doesn't have to be done in real time, you know, standard audio tape deck copying machine, which I have, which I have in fact sitting in Paris at the moment, I have two or three of them. Copy them again on a cassette? Exactly, it's just so that you have a secure backup, so that you have copies which can, in case, which God forbid, anything should happen to you, that would not take, that would only take maybe two days or so. What I suggest is that you let me come to Buffalo as soon as I can make the arrangements, and I will bring the machine that's needed for doing that, and that's a straightforward tape-double-deck, tape-copying machine, which you can run a one-hour tape, you can run through that in about three minutes.

7:30 So, popping 125, you'd be looking at about two days. Without degrading the quality? No, without degrading the quality at all. Just listen to it more. That's very old technology. That's been around for 25 years now. In fact, I could probably get a much better machine which would give better quality than the one I've got. That should be possible to do that within... Even with 125 hours of tapes, it should be possible to copy those in about two or three days, maybe three days or so. Hang on, I just want to check what's going to be before this wave. I'm sorry, this has been so exciting, I completely... We are heading in the right direction, but I... Do you forget me for having concealed this from you? Not at all. Well, you haven't concealed it that long, because you asked me about the transcription technology only, I think, in April, or... No, no. In fact, it wasn't even then, it was after we spoke in... No, no, it wasn't after that. No, I was going to say, it was actually after Calais. So I don't regard it, you haven't concealed it for a couple of months, and then more. Uh, hang on, let me, hang on, let me calm down to the point. Your hotel's there, on the Nami Strat, and we ought to be, where are we, I can't see, Rue de la Chancel V, hang on, I can't see the stand, I'm so sorry, I can't see in a slight, Rue de la Chancel V, Rue de la Chancel V, hang on, there's the boss waiting there. Sorry, I'm just trying to get my bearings, Phil, hang on, this is so stupid. Galliarder, gutermarket. Ah, hang on, here we are, here we are. It's actually called Galliarder, gutermarket. I'm pretty sure I know how to get back to where the goods were, if you notice that one of them.

10:00 Always start going off. And we're behind a cathedral, where the hell is... Oh, I see where we are, yes, I'm sorry, we have got a bit of a beam. Oh, I see where we are. Yes, yes. Yes, we've got to go straight on up here. No, it's okay. I can see where we are now. That's the, uh, the raw square. That takes us back up to... I was thinking we were further over from the central square. Now, this is absolutely amazing stuff, but, as I say, the first thing I think would, in practical terms, is to make it into a lot of these different topics. It's absolutely indispensable. In fact, we could make more than one. So it might need four or five days. The machine could just run on its own. It just needs to change the tape every time. It's a job, but it's just something you have to sit down and do. I'm quite happy to sit and do that for as many hours as it takes. Then, obviously, you've got the question of synthesizing the whole thing. Well, right, that's the reason that may have to be done in real time. Well, no, but that's just transferring, that's just simply re-recording the cassette. No, no, no, that's very old cassette technology, that's been around for a long time, transferring it into digital media. Well, as I say, I really see no reason at all why it shouldn't be done in real time, but there is some reason. So, yeah, oh, sorry, I just wondered if it's worth putting up there. Oh, hang on. Well, except, I don't think it's going to make that much difference to us, hang on. Uh, we're on the Rue de la... Rue de la Chancel Rue?

12:30 I don't want to waste your time by going off tune again. Sorry, why can I suddenly not see Rue de la Chancel Rue? It's very annoying. Oh, okay, I can see. And that must be... No, it's not going to make slight difference, actually, it's easier to see. Yes, I'm so excited, how am I? I don't know why I'm suddenly lost all sense of direction. It's very, very weird. This should be a major... The idea of several of the greatest products in the universe. Oh, God! Well, that's so disgusting, I can't believe it. Did I say that? The Cracking Center was the important thing. And if you'll allow me to volunteer to do it myself, I would feel safer. I'd just rather not interrupt you so important. It doesn't mean that... Oh, the... Yeah, the task is just so difficult. And, of course, that means you have to put up with me as your housekeeper and butler for a couple of days. I didn't really agree with you. No, I can't see you. Um, and then, as I say, we've got a little bit of improvisation. I need to try and get some funding, but I need to get some funding anyway. If I, but only when you've given the go-ahead and with your permission, if I were to tell David Lowe, as I go to grove, about this, it might help to stay away from the general historical society. But I'll hold far on that until I think the picture has grown a bit longer.

15:00 I had actually, as you might have guessed, I'd spent years digging to see if there were any. There you are. And then a little miracle occurs. In this case, rather a large one. I hope you've told him that there are people who will thank him for the rest of the recorded history of science. I haven't had very much contact with him for many years. Some souvenirs, you know, a purse, there's a, you know, the old encyclopedia, the old ballpark, the old hunting lodge. I told you what happened there? Well, Colin asked me if I would go. I'm willing to participate in a history meeting organized by myself and Ralph Cromer. And I said, well, actually, no. It's actually me and Colin and Ralph Cromer. But the thing is, I thought you probably would take... Well, the point is, it was Cromer who got the go-ahead from Oberwolf back and the funding to do this thing, so unfortunately we were obliged to work with him. There was unfortunately no alternative to working with him. But what makes me very angry, I knew that you took this view, which is why I have an invitation on you, but... It was a quick answer. I'm not totally against the person. Whenever he addresses the question of theory or history... I'm a third organizer, but now is the bad news. I was going to approach you to see if I could get your mind. I had already, back in...

17:30 And I went back and discussed it with Colin, and then we got in touch with Opal Wolfack, and with a list of the people that we wanted to invite, and we got a reply saying, oh, we're very sorry about that. Dr. Cromer contacted us a month ago with a list of 15 names and said that these were the people who were to be invited, and we've invited them all now, and we've got acceptances from all of them except three, and I'm afraid we can't de-invite people who have already been invited. It didn't include Johnstone? It didn't include Johnstone. Any of the people we've discussed. I've included a list of basically 12 cronies of Ralph Cromer, including these people from Nancy, who, to the best of my knowledge, have never done any, published any work, serious or otherwise, on the history of category theory. It's a serious breach. It's outrageous. We have a committee of three. We were never consulted. Neither Colin and I were consulted in the matter. There was only two people on that list whose names I had, in discussion, had been raised. One of them was Jean-Pierre Marquis. One of them was Colin himself. And one of them was Erhard Scholz, who I think is a very fine German historian of geometry, and we did, there was to be a section of the meeting on the, you know, the anticipation of Catholic-elected ideas in the development of century geometry, particularly Noether and Maas, so there was a, what you might call a prehistory Noether and Stone. And I think, anyway, Charles is a very fine general historian of mathematics and would have useful things to say, even though he's not particularly special. But he was on... These three people, no, he was on my list, together with Peter and Martin and Jean-Pierre Marcus. And only to discover that, apart from these two people, all the other people who have been invited, already officially invited, so the World Park can't simply invite them, are people who have just been nominated by World Cradle without even bothering to consult. Colin McCarthy on himself. And when I turned around to him and taxed him and said, don't you think you should consult your fellow organizers before issuing the invitation? Oh, well, I cleared it with Oba Wolfpack. Yes, but I'm sorry, we are the organizers of this meeting.

20:00 And yeah, but I was the person who was asked, invited in the first place by Oba Wolfpack. I can't de-invite people who've already been invited. Well, I'm actually curious, you know, we've now got 12 people, eight of whom, as far as I'm aware, Have nothing but significance to contribute to a meeting on history and avoid people who don't have any actual mathematics. Well, that's unfortunately exactly my impression. ...denominator of the world. So it's a totally wasted, it's at best a totally wasted opportunity. Well, it isn't the obvious thing for you in power and simplicity. Let him hang out. Well, I would be only too willing to do that, except that, over Volpac, and not willing, I think, to calculate pragmatically, what would we lose, right? Well, what we'd lose would be, I think, the meeting, because the trouble is, I don't see over Volpac kind of de-inviting people who've already been issued with an official invitation. It's just not the sort of thing... I'm not saying de-invite anybody. I'm saying, well, that's it. In which case, as I say, it totally wastes the opportunity of what could have been a very good meeting. Yeah, but at this point... Well, it doesn't, because there's probably no alternative. There is no more alternative. I'm absolutely curious. I was hoping that at least four or five of these people would just turn it down, because they're... And one of them is this bloody, broken, broken D.C. thief who Colin says is an absolute crap. There was one guy in Paris who's invited, who's quite good. But they just seem, personally, to be friends of... the friends of Ralph Kroger. I think Colin and I are strongly considering just cutting the painter and saying when... Cut it because the thing at this point is not to give any credence to these people. It's probably one of the people who has accepted his part here. So, of course, this now puts us in a difficult position since, well, Cartier, Jean-Pierre Marquis, Colin himself is one of the speakers. There are going to be some serious people there, but the point is maybe four serious or five serious speakers out of 15, whereas we should have had 15 serious speakers, including, of course, people who have actually contributed to the development of category theory. Well, I don't know if we know Cartier well enough. No. We could actually go to him. I think, unfortunately, it's too late to do anything. I'm just absolutely beside myself with anger. Well, we could, as it were, do what happened in Allman. We could hold our own rival meeting. Camp out in the Black Forest and hold our own, the real school on the history of category theory.

22:30 Well, he, of course, had no... He simply got the invitation and knew that Colin and I were involved in this. Well, you see, that's it already there. You and Colin have sufficient prestige. Well, I don't think I have... No, no, you do. Paul Cartier, he knows you. He knows you for a serious person. Well, I think he takes me more seriously than he takes Ralph Krohmer, but I should be very sorry if I didn't reach you. No, but it's a surprise to us that you are. Price is the remark that charge gain takes you sufficiently serious, and that's a reason to accept even without further investigating it. No, which is a very nice feeling, but for the moment it leaves me in a less sick position. Well, I haven't, I haven't gathered sufficiently deeply into the background of these other people, but one of them strikes me as... You're going to get into my role as a Chevette. Yeah. That's what Fatima calls it. What's a Chevette? Chevette is a, no, a Chevette is a kind of bird that's used as a decoy. Oh, I see, like a decoy duck. Yeah. Yeah. So the one that stands up and gives the... Yes, takes the plaque, yeah. Takes the plaque, yeah. The poor guy, the patsy, yeah. This is the guy who... I have no idea whether Cromer had some kind of ideological agenda or whether it's just that he was completely thoughtless. I'm a rather immature person. He's carrying it out right now. He says, we're open-ball fucking me. We are the organizing committee, so fuck you. Well, he didn't use the words fuck you, but he was... This is pragmatism. Yeah, I am. They're in vacant form. Well, he's whinging and whining also because he's lost his job in Nancy. He's been given the bum's rush and is now teaching in a gymnasium, which for some reason makes him feel such resentment that he no longer has to extend the elementary courtesies to his fellow organisers of such a meeting. I can't think of the guy I've called. I only have met him a couple of times. Anyway, why is that? In retrospect, I think you were. But had the thing been organized properly, had Colin and I been allowed to consult with you and Katya and to draw up an appropriate list of invitations, I think it could have been a very good meeting.

25:00 After all, you know, the Montpac is a great place to be. Do you know how much great mathematics has been created? I haven't done much for years. Well, anyway, as you say, so that's the IHS meeting, that's the January meeting in the IHS. Supposedly. Supposedly. I mean, it hasn't been announced. No, it hasn't been announced. Well, the purported meeting on Grosvenor in the IHS is fucked. Thanks to Colin Konsevich. The meeting in Obergolkak, which could have been a really serious meeting, I guess the prospects of that theory, is fucked, thanks to Cromer. I'm wondering, you know, what else they're going to manage to achieve. All of that fades into insignificance by comparison with what you just told me about this incredible recording treasure of Grosvenor. This is what I shall now focus on, I think, for the next six months or nine months, a week. Somehow I must get them where we all get them, make copies of these things for security, so that we could put it in a safe somewhere when we give the original back to the gang. Unless you think this was best of me being faster than making the DVD. Why is it preferable? Well, it's only just that taking the DVDs directly will take quite a long time. I mean, you could be looking at at least... If it's true that they have to be done in real time... I'm assuming that the default assumption is that the information you give is correct since they appear to be technically confident people are giving it. Therefore, that would have to be done in real time, so it would be several months at least. And in that time, you know, a lot of things could happen. So at least for security, I think we should have a complete set of backups of the audio tapes, which can be made in a matter of two or three days. Well, certainly not more than that. I can check more people than you can check your family. I'll check my guy in Benoit. This is really the case. But I think that even if it had to be done in real time, it could be done in 125 hours. It took, you know, to sit down, 125 hours at a stretch. The other thing, of course, which makes a big difference to this thing is whether, if you can get hold of the technology, i.e. if we can get, well, I actually kind of think that there's a pretty straightforward solution to this, which is that you need three or four PCs. It doesn't often have to be done sequentially for a single PC, but that would immediately cut the time in that.

27:30 There's no reason at all why, even if it has to be done in real time, it couldn't be done within a week, five or thirty hours. That could be done easily in a week. But then, as I say, all you're going to need is a simple recorder, audio recorder, to play the thing, and a connecting lead and a PC will allow you to... To put it into the, what, just to burn a copy, and then, what, to burn it to death. So if you had three or four... You mean burn it first? Yes, of course, of course. Because you have to do that before you make any DVD or CD. That you have you can't make a CD directly. No, no, no, so already put it on the computer we have a record of it. Yes, yes, you can have the back up, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and in fact you should definitely, for material of such importance as this, you should definitely keep an entire hard drive as a back up of this stuff on it. A dedicated hard drive. Yes, a dedicated hard drive. I mean that's what we're proposing to do with the archive and then those key keepers in safe location. That way, if anything, if I suddenly came back one day and found my house burnt to the ground, you know, the material would actually be quite secure. And that's one of the things I'm pressing on the various bodies that I'm approached for funding, that once they see the catalogue of what this photograph contains, they should see that it's important, that it should be digitised and preserved, and at least give me a foreseeable moment that I need to start on that. Yeah, well, keep going, keep going, it's getting better and better. Okay, well, that's it. I mean, we could easily rent three, you know... Yeah, it shouldn't be difficult these days, especially with the biggest depression for seven to eight years coming on. I think these years are going to be pretty cheap on the market. Yeah. Wait until after Christmas and you'll be able to... I still left my office two years ago. I was going to say, I mean, I'm sure with another retiree, but he's a very nice guy, I'm sure he would be. He's very intrusive, we don't, we're not really polite, you know. Besides, you wouldn't be making any noise doing this, I mean. No, no. No, it's all doable. It's all doable. I'm just wondering whether Benoit, my chap against me all the time, in Paris.

30:00 But I'm sure that we can do something, and it's important not to let it just sit there and really want to go. This is of tremendous importance. By the way, one point is that this Italian guy who did the video, he underlined this one point. It is very important to have a very high quality audio. I was preparing for the project of digitizing the archive, which contains all the reporting. You and your material, plus of course a lot of other material over the years, not considered to be of such scientific value as the parts that are devoted to, you know, teamwork, dare I say. Look, one of the things that I have to confess I've had to use to try and sell it is that I do have a whole set of recordings of all of Penrose's lectures in General Relativity in Oxford in the 1970s and 80s, and some of his discussions with Atiyah, which of course mathematics has been a very serious discussion. And this, of course, helps to open doors for students who write the British Society for History and Mathematics, which is incredibly important. Perhaps we can give you some sequel money at least to start recording this stuff. Of course, you get three or four lots of sequel money, but then you'll need enough funding for at least a year of it. By the way, Dustin told me several times that he's willing to pay for the whole thing himself. And he realizes that it would cost a couple of thousand dollars to be generous of him, but I don't think given his frailty, I would feel very, well, you know, I mean, basically, well, if he's willing to contribute to it, then obviously I wouldn't, well, I'd trust entirely to your judgment as to whether he does it the right way.

32:30 Well, if he's willing to do that, then I'd jump at the chance of coming over. I mean, I wouldn't want to sell him, but obviously I think a couple of miles travel is expensive. It's okay. Well, no. And that's your street. That's your hotel. Just up through the arch there. This morning. I was so excited by what you were telling me. I could have written it off. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, it was exactly. I haven't realized they demolished the old building at the same time as they built the new shiny, expanding institute. Because I've never actually been to a new one. Well, they've built a new one and they've managed to move it. They've managed to move it and they've managed to retrieve the pictures of it as well. Because, of course, you're quite right, it was originally the Luftwaffe. I think it was actually their mathematical research. That's what I heard. Why the fact that they actually agreed to have a workshop on the history and prospect of mathematics and geometry was actually quite so angry that it's now been put in jeopardy, effectively virtually thrown away by this bloody theorem of mathematics. I think it's just sheer impurity as far as I'm aware. I doubt whether there is actually any kind of significant improvement on those things.

35:00 Well, that is, yes, well, that is part of the backup. Well, that you're certainly going to treasure and keep for life, I'm sure. Yes, yes, yes. Well, I can quite see why you forgot about the sheet. We'll retrieve the sheet later. I very much, I'd be honoured to meet Jack Gustin. He's an absolutely delightful man. I don't think I ever met him. Did I ever attend a seminar with David Gates? I don't think so, unless he was at the convention. He wasn't at any of the ICTNs in 89 or 90 or what a discovery. Well, I have to say, I feel a little bit like Howard Carter must have done when he... Or rather, he got to figure out exactly where it was, and they kind of excavated the steps and realized, yes, they really had found the pharaoh's tomb. I think it's one of those kind of moments. The trouble is, I need to find one of the chapters of Ludwig's book, you know, his Recoltes and Miles. Something about emerging from the tomb. Oh gosh. That's all the facts. Speaking from the tomb. It's obviously quite an allusion to Chateaubriand. Well, that is incredible. But the problem is, just to take the analogy a little bit further, that what I need is

37:30 the equivalent of Lord Carnarvon's rich, hyper-rich weapon. A British Aristo, or similar, who is dictated with Egyptology, or rather in this case dictated with the history of mathematics and algebraic geometry. So you say that the three courses collected were on algebraic geometry on topos theory and on algebraic groups. And algebraic groups, you said, sir. Algebraic geometry and algebra of the law. Yeah. And these were the courses that you taught in the Bartholomew School. Thank you very much. Probably the last systematic courses that he ever gave. Yeah. Yes, because he, after that, he more or less completely, yeah, yes. Right. Yeah, okay, sorry, sorry, do, do. The penny just dropped, do. And sorry, sorry to sound like Homer Simpson, do. There probably seemed very significantly different from what he did before. Not only was he sort of rethinking them before he was doing it. Well, plus being in this crazy genealogical state, which may have damaged them, you know. Well, yes. I mean, in any case, in any case. Okay, so I'm sorry, I thought I said, oh, whatever. Uh, well, whatever, whatever. Yes, not if it was a part of the contents of his shit bucket. Well, there isn't any back in these recordings. Not that I know of. No, no, he was talking about alphabet groups. No, at least he was sticking to the subject. Now, in fact, he had this at the time, this established practice. He would accept an invitation to give an academic lecture on the condition that... He was given funding for his crazy... Well, not necessarily funding in general, but to be able to give another talk on survival. Oh, about Silivro and... But in this case, it was money. It wasn't just... Although he did give. I mean, when I heard this quote from him talk... At the same evening, he also gave another talk about the stuff.

40:00 Well, whatever it was, it was money well spent, not because it was spent on the report of Geophatology, Buddhism, and Saliva, but because it produced this fantastic record that is, I'll bet you, this last major statement of his idea of a mathematician. And this of course is one of the reasons also why for years now I've been banging on to you, or asking Colin to bang on to you, about this paper, because it's not just... it's incredible visionary. The literary conception of how to bypass logic, as it contains, but it's also the fact that it's more or less the president's last major schematic statement. That was around 1980 to 83, wasn't it? About ten years after he delivered these lectures in Buffalo and produced this document. The dreadful thought is that given the depth of his class, what he's descended into is a grip of his religious mania. I understand some of the things he says, although whether he really believes any of it. Oh, he does? Oh, that's very good news. That's also the impression I got from what Karthik told me about this content that he has now made with the AXS people in the last year. Yeah, which is so interesting. I would love to have written one better than that.

42:30 Exactly. There may be exemplified logic, but the fact that he asked for Newton, the third volume of Newton's Principle, is in some ways just very interesting indeed, but his craziness, as you know, has taken the form of a session about other ideas which seem to be connected with Newton. By the way, Pierre told me that we were sitting in the cave. He said, you know, you're able to speak at the electron without the seed. I pointed out that the size of the electron radius, of the orbital radius, is such that of course we can't find out where it is. It's going way too fast. Alpha being 1 over 137. It's going so damn fast, of course it's going about thousands and thousands and thousands of times, and we don't have any measure against it. In other words, it's not some kind of mythical undecidability, but it's certainly a question of the physical dimensions of things. I think that was his point. Yes, I've spoken to him about that. I take it that he does have that view. I think it's very interesting some of the stuff he's now doing on the cosmic Galois group, which I don't really understand at all, but some of his students are working on. I would just love to know and understand more about that, but it certainly seems to be far deeper than what people in the physics department spend most of their time doing, especially when they're trying to search for it in close-ups and so on and so on. That's how you do it, that's how you do it. Yes. Yes, I can lecture about that in no time at all. What, you're going to show it to Jack? Okay, let's start from there. What time do you apply time? Well, it's pretty early, I mean...

45:00 Oh, oh, oh, it's early. Is that okay? No. Well, that gives us no way I'm going to be able to get around you tonight. Even if I was going to stay away for a while, which I frankly, I could, I'm so excited. But I'll email you with the dates. I'll sit down, can't we? No, I know exactly what we'll be required to do. No, I've got a whole list of that stuff. I can give you a complete list of that stuff, even tell you exactly how much it would cost in dollars, because I did all the costing for this when I wrote the proposal a year or over a year back with Peter Batchelor, because that was in connection with the other stuff. It hasn't been circulated yet, because we want to complete the catalog. It's already a really exciting day, fantastic in terms of everything you've told me, wonderful ideas, to the most fantastic end, climax, I'm sorry we didn't get inside the arsenal of Platonism yet again, but I'll dig out some stuff on the web about that. So, thanks again from the bottom of my heart, and I'm going to go back down to the back of the mountain. Thank you. I'll get the mic. I'm dying, Ralph. Thank you once again for everything. As the saying goes, keep in touch. Yeah. Don't worry, chief. Don't worry, champ. I will. Okay. Very good. God bless you. Very good. Cheers. Take care. I'll speak to you very soon. Right. Love to talk to you. And Silvana and Danilo and everybody, of course. Take care.